George Clooney has defined and redefined charisma so many times in his 40-plusâyear career that his name ought to be synonymous with it. From an early guest role as a fresh-faced handyman on The Facts of Life to his collection of Oscar gold as both an actor and producer, and with multiple identities as a humanitarian, entertainer, and activist, the 60-year-old icon has proven that masculinity isnât always toxic. So who better to direct an adaptation of The Tender Bar, J.R. Moehringerâs best-selling ode to the âmale sciences,â in which an all-in Ben Affleck shows a wide-eyed Tye Sheridan the ropes of being a man in the 1980s? And who better to talk through the project than his old pal Matt Damon, who is no stranger to working with Affleck and the crazy business of making movies? As can be seen in the following conversation, the answer is no one. â JESSE DORRIS.
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MATT DAMON: Hey, Georgie.
GEORGE CLOONEY: Hey, Matty boy. Where are you?
DAMON: Iâm in New York. Where are you?
CLOONEY: Iâm in London. Day after tomorrow, I go to Australia. Iâm doing a movie with Julia [Roberts].
DAMON: I heard all about it when I was down there. Everyone was excited for you to come.
CLOONEY: Itâs going to be fun. I havenât done a romantic comedy since, I guess Out of Sight, and that was 1998. This oneâs like Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. Julia and I just fuck each other over all the time. That sounds like fun to me.
DAMON: Are you shooting on the Gold Coast? Or Sydney?
CLOONEY: Weâre going to start at the Whitsunday Islands and then weâre in Brisbane. All doubling for Bali.
DAMON: How long are you there for?
CLOONEY: Until the end of January. And then I come back to London and weâre shooting The Boys in the Boat right away. So, how are you doing? Are you okay?
DAMON: Yeah, I think so.
CLOONEY: Listen brother, someday you and I will sit down and figure this industry out.
DAMON: Not anytime soon. Twenty years ago we talked about how Napster was going to come for movies. But one thing I didnât anticipate was the way these things would change the content, because suddenly the movies that were our bread and butter donât have a DVD coming behind them that was a revenue stream you could depend on.
CLOONEY: Itâs been happening for a while. Part of the reason why [Steven] Soderbergh and I pushed to start Warner Independent was because we needed some place to go where we could make movies that we liked to do, because honestly, if you go to big Warner Bros. and say, âIâm going to shoot Good Night, and Good Luck for $7 million,â they canât really conceive of doing a film for that amount and then spending $40 million on the marketing campaign. So you really needed these other places to go. The streamers have supplied that in a way. Our major responsibility is to make sure thereâs a good solid theatrical window that comes along with it. That keeps the theaters in business, whether they want to do business with films like that or not. Thatâs always a complication, because when we did this last film with Ben, thatâs not a big wide-release film. It wasnât designed to be. The budget on it was really small. Ben took a big cut. We hired Ben over you because he was much cheaper.
DAMON: [Laughs] I was wondering about that, or if it was that you were upset with my work in Suburbicon.
CLOONEY: We actually asked your agent, who is the same as Benâs. We said, âHow about Matt?â And he goes, âHow about I give you Ben and you save some bucks?â I thought, âWell, thatâs a nice offer right there.â
DAMON: What was it like working with him? He obviously loved the script that [William] Monahan wrote, but he said that he got some of the best direction heâs had in his career from you. And I was thinking, âWell, where the fuck did that come from?â I mean, Iâve done three movies with you. [Laughs]
CLOONEY: âWorst director Iâve ever worked with!â [Laughs] When you guys came out of Good Will Hunting, there was that moment that happens when something hits, where suddenly you get that stardust thrown on you and they go, âOkay, youâre going to get your opportunity.â You and Ben went in a little bit different directions. Ben did some Armageddon kind of movies so he wasnât given enough credit for his talent as an actor, and wasnât given the kind of roles that he was capable of doing. He had a couple, but not many. And then he directed his way out of that problem and changed his career in a big way. I sent The Tender Bar script to him and said, âWhat do you think?â He wrote me a three-page email about everything he knew about this character. I think there are parts of his father that he related to in it. It just felt like Ben really wanted to do this and was ready to do it. And he really showed upâthe first guy on the set; he knew everybodyâs lines. Heâs a consummate pro. So, directing him really wasnât the best direction heâs ever gotten, meaning I didnât say anything to him, which is maybe what he wanted all along .
DAMON: Youâre being humble. He said that you didnât say a lot, but you always said the right thing. I remember seeing Sean Penn on Inside the Actors Studio where they asked him what he didnât like in a director, and he said, âToo much chatter,â which is really relatable for all of us, because there are only so many notes that you can take and so many adjustments you can make.
CLOONEY: The very first job I did with the Coen brothers was O Brother, Where Art Thou? I was nervous, man. It was the Coen brothers and they were already gods. And I had this great part, this idiot named Everett. On the first day, the first scene was the one where John Goodman hits me in the head with a branch and knocks corn out of my mouth. I did the scene in one take, and I played Everett like an idiot because heâs an idiot. Joel [Coen] came over and went, âJust remember youâre the smartest guy in the room in every room you walk into.â Thatâs kind of the last thing he said to me for the whole movie. And I was like, âOh fuck, of course. Youâre right.â It was freeing. Oftentimes, directors donât give actors notes like that because they are thinking about the results and not the process. But Ben understood his character from the minute he got in.
DAMON: Backing up a little, I havenât heard anything about how you got involved with the movie. Did you get the material and commission Monahan? Or did he write it and you read it?
CLOONEY: Grant [Heslov, Clooneyâs producing partner] and I chased the book when it first came out and we lost out to Scott Rudin. Then last year, when we had just finished doing The Midnight Sky, which is a pretty depressing film, Amazon sent it to me and said, âWeâre going to do this on a budget if you want to do it.â I read it, and itâs a gentle film. I feel like my fists and jaw have been clenched for six years. And everybodyâs so angry. So the ability to do a film that is just about kindness and love and support, I sort of needed it, and when I read it, I thought, âMaybe people are up for that, too.â
DAMON: There are many ways in which it is nothing like your life, but did you have your own âUncle Charlieâ?
CLOONEY: I had an Uncle George. I was named after him. He was my dadâs uncle, so he was actually my great uncle, but he was only a couple of years older than my dad. In the summers when I was around the same age as J.R. 5 at the same time the movie is set, I would work at River Downs racetrack in Cincinnati, and I lived above a bar exactly like the one in the movie with my Uncle George. So all of that was really familiar to me.
DAMON: Thatâs cool. I didnât know that about your uncle, but itâs interesting, because youâre like that for a lot of people; certainly for actors who are younger than you. A lot of people go to you for advice.
CLOONEY: Listen, my Uncle George was in many ways a cautionary tale. He was a B-17 bomber pilot hero in World War II. He dated Miss America. He was my Aunt Rosemaryâs band manager. I mean, he was the shit, and he was also a terrible alcoholic. He was one of the funniest men I ever knew, but when he was drunk, which was often, he was terrible. He was vicious and mean and had none of the qualities of the Uncle Charlie character. But youâre a writer, and you know that when you have fully fleshed-out characters, everything about telling a story gets easier. The Tender Bar is not a story where too much happensâthatâs sort of the charm of it, that itâs just about people making sure that somebody gets out. And itâs like The Wizard of Oz in the sense that itâs about a young man who keeps looking for something that he had all alongâsearching for a father when he had Uncle Charlie, who was infinitely better than the father that he thought he wanted. I think we all have some of that in us, and learn that kind of lesson. I liked that it was just a piece of life. And we filled it with all these great people. I called up Grant, and I said, âWho I would like to get to play Grandpa is Christopher Lloyd.â Because for my whole life, Iâve been doing Christopher Lloyd impressions. I love the guy so much, and heâs finally the age heâs been playing for 40 years. I was shocked he said yes to the role, because it wasnât a huge part and he was overqualified for it. But itâs a fun part, and he did it beautifully. And Briana [Middleton], who plays J.R.âs girlfriend Sidney, this is her first acting job on the big screen and sheâs spectacular.
DAMON: Where did you find her?
CLOONEY: She read. We read a lot of actresses, but we needed someone who was able to do a lot of rotten things along the way that you still didnât completely hate. And itâs hard to act that. But she has a really lovely quality. Then Tye [Sheridan] came in and read for J.R., and he gave a really wonderful performance. And heâs a Southern boy from Elkhart, Texas, and he talks with a drawl, so he had to work harder because itâs an accent.
DAMON: Heâs terrific. I wouldnât have known that.
CLOONEY: Yeah, heâs really good. Youâve got to root for J.R. If people donât root for him, you lose. It was that same vibe when we did Catch-22 with Chris Abbott playing Yossarian. If you root for Chris as Yossarian, then Catch will work. And he was spectacular in the role. I keep wanting Chris to really break.
DAMON: Me, too. That guy popped off the screen.
CLOONEY: I think heâs going to. Heâs in Budapest working right now, and heâs also a really good guy. So I do think thatâs going to happen. And again, itâs kind of that thing with Ben where thereâs a time and place when an actorâs right. I did, what? Seven TV series and 13 pilots before ER? I was beat up on all sides by the time ER came around.
DAMON: I remember Ben met you at a backyard barbecue in 1993 or â92. And he was like, âI met the nicest guy. Heâs been on ten TV shows.â
CLOONEY: âHe canât hold a job, that guy.â [Laughs] I remember when you came over, Iâd just put a screening room in my house. What year do you think that was?
DAMON: That wouldâve been 1999, I think.
CLOONEY: Yeah, because you were about to do that golf movie [The Legend of Bagger Vance], right?
DAMON: Thatâs exactly right. I was about to go do it, and Iâd never played golf. And I remember, you modeled a swing for me. You were like, âItâs easy. Youâve just got to get a little rotation in your hips.â And I remember thinking, âGod, I wish I could do that. Iâll get away with this movie if I can just do that.â That was when you told me that thing that Paul Newman had said to you, âDonât let them keep you inside.â
CLOONEY: Yeah. It was only a couple years earlier that I saw Paul Newman on the backlot of Warner Bros. He was sitting in a golf cart and I walked over like, âHey man.â And heâs like, âHey, whatâs happening?â And I was like, âNot much.â And he didnât know who I was, really. But it was well into ER and Iâd done a few movies, and I was kind of the mayor of Warner Bros. because Iâd been in every stage for years and years, before ER, even. And so people kept driving by going, âGeorgie!â and waving. So Paul slowly figured it out, and he goes, âOut of Sight, right?â And I was like, âYeah.â And then he just says, âDonât let them keep you inside.â It was a funny thing, because I was kind of hiding then, because I hadnât been in that position. Thatâs why I said it to you.
DAMON: When you said it to me I was in the exact same place. Itâs a real mindfuck when your life gets tipped over like that. And it certainly led me to want to hide in a crouch.
CLOONEY: Itâs a bug light, right? You go flying right at it because youâre desperately trying to work, and to achieve something that puts you in a position where you can continually work, and then when you get there, you get zapped. You go, âThis is a lot. Iâve lost all privacy.â I also remember us having a conversation about how long careers last.
DAMON: Yes, that was when we shot Oceanâs 11 in Chicago in early 2001, and we were at a bar. We had that discussion about how a decade in this business was almost unattainable, about that really being the goal. Because I think we were talking about the big movie stars in 1991, and as we walked through them, we were like, âOh man, that personâs not here anymore.â
CLOONEY: I saw some website where they showed the careers of the biggest stars of all time, like Cary Grant. And it was all, like, 20 years. Itâs not as long as you think. And youâre like, âHoly shit. Itâs hard to keep working.â Some of the reason why you started writing was because you were trying to write yourself a part, right?
DAMON: Yeah.
CLOONEY: And for me it was that I didnât want to worry about what some casting director thought of me when I was 50 or 60.
DAMON: And now we are. [Laughs]
CLOONEY: So hereâs a question. Should we do another Oceanâs film? [Laughs] Itâs all I get asked. I think we should. Weâd have to do it in style, right?
DAMON: Yeah, exactly.
CLOONEY: Weâre all wetting ourselves, holding canes and things.
DAMON: [Laughs] With this business there are obviously all of these sea changes that we canât control, but given that you are a writer, a director, a producer, and an actor, and you can create your own stuff, whatâs coming in the next 10, 20 years?
CLOONEY: I had a conversation with Amal [Clooney] the day after I turned 60. I had just done the body scans, checked for cysts and polyps, had a colonoscopy, blood tests, and everything was fine, knock on wood. I said, âOkay, so Iâm 60 and I feel really good. I can still play basketball. I can still run around. But in 20 years, Iâm 80. And I donât care how good you eat, and how well you take care of yourself, 80 is a real number. So we have to make sure that we properly extract everything out of the next 20 years.â And that means we have to work, because if either of us stopped working we would actually go crazy. But we have to do it with the idea that weâre not rushing towards some finish line. My goal is to pay a little more attention to life in general, because I think actors, directors, writers, and all of it, weâre always in such a desperate rush not to step off the gas, and the panic sort of sets in that if you do, then thatâs it. Iâm still getting nice offers to work, so as long as they let me play in the sandbox, Iâll play in the sandbox, but I donât have to fill it with all the toys anymore. Thatâs been the exciting and realistic part of aging. Are you still on the mad dash?
DAMON: God, no. I felt really good about these last two movies that I worked on, and they got worked like the â85 Pats, but thereâs nothing you can do about that. But I spent those years the way I did as a younger guy because I loved it so much. I loved living out of a duffle bag. I just took jobs, and I learned a lot that way. We always talk about it as a trade, and the best way to become a carpenter is to just keep building houses.
CLOONEY: Itâs funnyâwhen you get successful, they give you a trailer. Iâm from Kentucky. Trailers are not a status symbol for us. But when we did Oceanâs, none of us were ever in our trailer because you could sit on set and listen to Carl Reiner, Elliott Gould, and Bernie Mac. Iâm still very excited about going to work every day.
DAMON: And something that you do as a director, and that Steven does, and that a lot of the people weâve worked with do, is create so much momentum around the camera that you donât want to be anywhere else.
CLOONEY: Well Soderbergh, who was sort of my teacher in how to make films and tell stories, said, âAlways shoot with a point of view.â And part of shooting with a point of view is that youâre only covering the shots that you know youâre going to use. So youâre not going into an editing room four months later and trying to come up with a story. Youâve picked your story, and youâve put your pencil down, and you can hand in your homework.
DAMON: What would you do if you walked onto a set right now, and after one day you realized that it was just master, two-shot, over, over, single, single? Tons of takes. I donât think Iâd have the patience anymore to do it. Thatâs not directing. Do you think youâd ever even find yourself in that situation?
CLOONEY: I would hope not. The best thing you can do as a director is to make the actors feel safe and comfortable, and youâll see some really interesting stuff happening. You can do 55 takes and maybe youâll find what you want, but to me, thatâs not doing your job. Thatâs just wearing people down. As an actor, I would despise doing a film like that. And listen, when we were doing Out of Sight with Soderbergh, and we did that scene with Jennifer [Lopez] in the back of the trunk, the plan was to do it in one take, but it took us all day, and we didnât get it. It was like 40 takes. But that was an attempt to do something really big.
DAMON: What I love about Steven is that heâs so mercenary that even after all of that capital spent on getting it in one, you guys still cut it.
CLOONEY: Well, we had to go back and reshoot. He came to me and said, âWeâve got to go back in the scene.â I said, âYouâve got to be fucking kidding me. After all that?â He was like, âYeah, we have to.â The first thing I directed was Confessions of a Dangerous Mind, and after I finished it, it was about 2 hours and 35 minutes, so I knew I was going to have to cut something. I had this really complex shot that I was very proud of, and the first person I screened the movie for was Soderbergh. He watched it, and goes, âYouâre going to cut that scene.â I was like, âYouâre out of your mind. Itâs the best shot in the whole thing.â And he goes, âYouâre going to cut it,â and I go, âNo, Iâm not.â Then, two months later, I was sitting in the editing room, and I was like, âFuck, heâs right.â
DAMON: Thatâs what Walter Murch always called âpreserving your virginity.â Thatâs why he doesnât go to the setâhe doesnât want to know how long a shot took, because then you invest in it. You have to be able to look at it totally apart from the set.
CLOONEY: Oh, thatâs brilliant.
DAMON: Steven always talks about âmovie, scene, moment.â Thatâs your hierarchy: the movie, then the scene, then the moment. And actors, of course, do it in reverse, like, âOh, that moment.â And itâs like, âNo, weâre chucking it to make the scene better.â Or, âWeâre chucking that scene to make the movie better.â
CLOONEY: Part of the reason why Soderbergh and I clicked was because on Out of Sight, I would give him notes where I would say, âYou should cut me out of that scene,â because I was watching it as a storyteller. But I remember doing a scene in O Brother where theyâre going to hang us, and we get down on our knees crying, and Iâve got real tears pouring down my face. And Iâm feeling like, âMan, Iâm kicking some ass right here. This is good shit.â Then, when I saw the cut, they didnât use that take. They used the goofy one. I was like, âWhat the fuck?â And they were like, âYeah, it didnât really make sense.â The thing is, actors try to cry. People try not to cry. So just seeing somebody trying to regain their composure afterwards is much more interesting. But itâs hard to tell actors that. I was in an acting class for ten years trying to cry, pulling nose hairs, anything I could do.
DAMON: [Laughs] Thatâs right.
CLOONEY: What else is going on? Whatâs your life going to be?
DAMON: Iâm going to figure out if Iâm going to write something else, or what the heck Iâm going to do. Iâm just getting everybody settled in New York and hanging out.
CLOONEY: After Australia Iâm going to be in London shooting for a while, and then Italy. So you should come to Italy.
DAMON: Next summer?
CLOONEY: Yeah.
DAMON: Everybody reading this interview is invited.
CLOONEY: Everyone can come. Iâll pour prosecco for everybody. Thatâs kind of my real job.
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Production: Siobahn Devlin at Devlin Webber London
Photography Assistant: Victor De Dalleux and Jori Komulainen